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Post by flyingcarpet46 on Dec 21, 2021 22:38:36 GMT
It's a real shame the forum didnt develop in the way you envisioned , with the kind of debate you hoped for ?
But i see a relevant 'archive' in the items you chose to post in an organised way. It's your selection (predominantly) out of the mass of information and views out there on the internet and, I guess with your integral mental health model in mind?
There's much more there - around consciousness, spirit, soul but these are relevant to the need for some of us to understand/make sense of psychotic experiences?
But of course i should read your aims rather than guess as Im doing here.
But I wont push you to think of how your selection of material might be relevant/of interest to other people.( And there is an issue in loaning/donating around control of any archive collection). I just think our 'voices' and actions are important whether or not we achieve our ambitions as part of collective knowledge/activity .
I'll leave it at that.
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Post by Admin on Dec 21, 2021 22:53:05 GMT
It's a real shame the forum didnt develop in the way you envisioned , with the kind of debate you hoped for ? But i see a relevant 'archive' in the items you chose to post in an organised way. It's your selection (predominantly) out of the mass of information and views out there on the internet and, I guess with your integral mental health model in mind? There's much more there - around consciousness, spirit, soul but these are relevant to the need for some of us to understand/make sense of psychotic experiences? But of course i should read your aims rather than guess as Im doing here. But I wont push you to think of how your selection of material might be relevant/of interest to other people.( And there is an issue in loaning/donating around control of any archive collection). I just think our 'voices' and actions are important whether or not we achieve our ambitions as part of collective knowledge/activity . I'll leave it at that. Thanks.
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Post by Admin on Dec 21, 2021 23:03:30 GMT
It's a real shame the forum didnt develop in the way you envisioned , with the kind of debate you hoped for ? i simply wanted to do something to try & create better mental health treatment & a better society in relation to it's treatment of all health & social issues. But what do i know - it can all carry on as it is.
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Post by flyingcarpet46 on Dec 22, 2021 7:27:17 GMT
You know a lot that has arisen through your experiences - though some you may have wished not to have - and your studies/researches. And you have thought a lot to make sense of these and to organise ypur thoughts/findings in a meaningful way. And established a treasure trove of info on your forum but people are pursuing other 'treasures '.
The problem as I see it is, if I may say so again, is the implementation of our 'visions' as to how things might be .
I'm intrigued by how change occurs, in its many ways, and what stands in its way. You might say the stupid masses but that's not how I see it. Our society is a much more nuanced and complicated system. And not always as predicable as we might assume.
I've watched and have some evidence of this through grassroots activism but I also studied an OU course on the science and technology of everyday life and one on the beliefs of some prominent scientists - and indeed of some others whose ideas only made it long after their deaths. Some were ignored; some were derided for their hypotheses; some even executed by church authorities.
I read an intriguing book, Galileo's Daughter, based on her letters to him. His latter days were spent under house arrest for supporting some of the newer ideas that were emerging ie that the Earth was not the centre of the Universe. He would have been executed but for the intervention of a noble friend.
Galileo placed his 2 daughters into a convent in their teens. One kept her a correspondence with Galileo on his thoughts and activities. The other can be seen as becoming mentally ill and struggling through out her life. Daughters were often put in convents in their teens to keep them safe from men's attentions.
You will never know what contribution all you have amassed in your forum might make at some point in the future (ripples in a pond, interconnections...) if it disappears.
Oops. I'm as undisciplined as ever not sticking to all my intentions ie not to push you to preserve your forum content but I'm becoming a keen archivist under the influence of T who is working on a number of disabled peopke's archives and producing various interesting booklets as well as my catalogue.
I think we place too much on individuals, turning some into luminaries, but none reached that status solely on their own effort and brilliance.
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Post by flyingcarpet46 on Dec 22, 2021 7:33:10 GMT
And ad has just appeared on this thread. I could travel by AirFrance to Kenya for £385 pounds. But 50 years of change has happened since I was there and, with covid, this is not the time to travel anywhere. TNH was always homesick for Vietnam , finally making it back but through ill health.
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Post by Admin on Dec 22, 2021 12:02:27 GMT
You know a lot that has arisen through your experiences - though some you may have wished not to have - and your studies/researches. And you have thought a lot to make sense of these and to organise ypur thoughts/findings in a meaningful way. And established a treasure trove of info on your forum but people are pursuing other 'treasures '. The problem as I see it is, if I may say so again, is the implementation of our 'visions' as to how things might be . It's very limited really what can be achieved with an on-line forum.
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Post by flyingcarpet46 on Dec 22, 2021 19:02:33 GMT
I see quite a lot of limitations to on line forums or events for all their promise but have no answers .
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Post by Admin on Dec 22, 2021 21:07:10 GMT
I see quite a lot of limitations to on line forums or events for all their promise but have no answers . i think it's a great shame that humanity & the mental health community cannot be more united over all these areas.
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Post by flyingcarpet46 on Dec 23, 2021 6:03:49 GMT
I can see why there isnt unity.
One reason is the current structure of mental health services which have a history to them and established training for medical students (v limited) followed by work as trainees within hospital settings. In other words they are institutionalised .
Add this different countries have their own set ups -eg the US and the UK . The US also has a long culture of privitatised personal psychotherapy .
If we then look at service users/recipients there at least arenas of major controversy. One is around diagnosis - quite a number of issues here as you will know, both around the criteria that signify 'disorder' and the names given to these eg schizophrenia and personality disorder (and manic depression until it became bipolar).
As strong as this controversy is that around treatment - how it is enacted (with consent, coercion, force), how effective it is felt to be, iatrogenic effects and the extent to which these may/not be acceptable. T
Thrown in here is also a load of research/views held by individual psychiatrists (eg Critical Psychyiatry Network) , within academia (John Read) and through competition between psychiatry and psychology (eg Peter Breggin , Thomas Szasz and more Lucy Johnson and others and the Power Threat Mean8ng Framework). Being a service user/recipient doesnt mean we necessarily lose all critical facilities (exemplified by you and me, although medication may impact on these.
As service user/recipients our views on our experiences and our attempts to make sense of these differ not least because psychiatry doesnt have the certainity yet behind it that is generally claimed. Much of the research is carried out by pharmaceutical companies and there is credible criticism regarding limitations in methodology, who puts their name to the research, which research results are published and which ones withheld or quietly disappear.(the name of a major uk critic has just slipped my mind).
I am sure I'm not saying anything here that you don't know about.
So where does all this leave you and me? Well, we can try and work it out for ourselves or work collectively to exptess our views and to trigger change (eg Mad in America). But for all we have in common pur experiences and lnowledge lead us to draw different comclusions and place our emphasis differently.
So, the question, why dont we just get together and set up an 8ntegral service? Because this all amounts to a complex system .
I read with interest that fungi ,despite having no brain structure also form complex systems - competing, co-operating , collaborating (and have been highly successful from the v early times of our planer). Are competition, co-operation, collabotation inherent to earth's life forms or is there a spiritual path (Pier de Chardin's noosphere) we as humans must take account of/give priority too. And if so, which spiritual path of all the ones eg claimed on the interner, to be holding the Truth.
With all this going on it's scarcely surprising to me that there are some major disagreements. My own choice is to hold my own corner and, if possible, work with others towards change 8n smalk ways but within a greater vision - and hoping others are doing the same in their corners where, if we cant agree, we could collobrate.
Bit long for a forum post , I know, but I am trying to provide part of an answer to your question.No soundbites from me . Sorry.
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Post by Admin on Dec 23, 2021 11:37:01 GMT
I can see why there isnt unity. One reason is the current structure of mental health services which have a history to them and established training for medical students (v limited) followed by work as trainees within hospital settings. In other words they are institutionalised . Add this different countries have their own set ups -eg the US and the UK . The US also has a long culture of privitatised personal psychotherapy . If we then look at service users/recipients there at least arenas of major controversy. One is around diagnosis - quite a number of issues here as you will know, both around the criteria that signify 'disorder' and the names given to these eg schizophrenia and personality disorder (and manic depression until it became bipolar). As strong as this controversy is that around treatment - how it is enacted (with consent, coercion, force), how effective it is felt to be, iatrogenic effects and the extent to which these may/not be acceptable. T Thrown in here is also a load of research/views held by individual psychiatrists (eg Critical Psychyiatry Network) , within academia (John Read) and through competition between psychiatry and psychology (eg Peter Breggin , Thomas Szasz and more Lucy Johnson and others and the Power Threat Mean8ng Framework). Being a service user/recipient doesnt mean we necessarily lose all critical facilities (exemplified by you and me, although medication may impact on these. As service user/recipients our views on our experiences and our attempts to make sense of these differ not least because psychiatry doesnt have the certainity yet behind it that is generally claimed. Much of the research is carried out by pharmaceutical companies and there is credible criticism regarding limitations in methodology, who puts their name to the research, which research results are published and which ones withheld or quietly disappear.(the name of a major uk critic has just slipped my mind). I am sure I'm not saying anything here that you don't know about. So where does all this leave you and me? Well, we can try and work it out for ourselves or work collectively to exptess our views and to trigger change (eg Mad in America). But for all we have in common pur experiences and lnowledge lead us to draw different comclusions and place our emphasis differently. So, the question, why dont we just get together and set up an 8ntegral service? Because this all amounts to a complex system . I read with interest that fungi ,despite having no brain structure also form complex systems - competing, co-operating , collaborating (and have been highly successful from the v early times of our planer). Are competition, co-operation, collabotation inherent to earth's life forms or is there a spiritual path (Pier de Chardin's noosphere) we as humans must take account of/give priority too. And if so, which spiritual path of all the ones eg claimed on the interner, to be holding the Truth. With all this going on it's scarcely surprising to me that there are some major disagreements. My own choice is to hold my own corner and, if possible, work with others towards change 8n smalk ways but within a greater vision - and hoping others are doing the same in their corners where, if we cant agree, we could collobrate. Bit long for a forum post , I know, but I am trying to provide part of an answer to your question.No soundbites from me . Sorry. Part of the problem that i have with all the anti / critical / alternative psychiatry areas is the denial of severe mental illness.
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Post by flyingcarpet46 on Dec 23, 2021 13:11:06 GMT
Yes I understand that. There is quite a lot of outr8ght denial but there are also quite a few peo0le like me who are rightly critical of ps6chiatry without gping as far as saying we arw not affected by brain/neuropys8cal activity.
And then there are those like me who find that the term 'illness' distracts from a meaningful look at our psychosis/voices/distress where when links have been established with circumstances (past and present) with environments/society/culture and prefer to talk of altered states, extraordinary experiences, deep distress, dissent (in some cases, fear....
I like it be assumed I have a physical illness like diabetes (a common example) although I know that at times I am not 'well' and unable to do much including daily tasks. Or that my senses are heightening and I need to reduce this.
So there is a problem. If the likes of you and me cant agree /fall out is collobration still possible so that both of us have the kind of support we believe we need ?
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Post by flyingcarpet46 on Dec 23, 2021 13:34:18 GMT
I also know that the severity of some of our conditions has been sidelined by numerous therapies claiming that we can recover by adopting various strategies/ practices . Therapy waa not widesoread 8nthe UK aa 8n thw States but is now portrayed as the abswer for everything.
On the othee hand, 8nsistence on an illness model puts people like myself at risj of forced trsatment, violation and trauma. 8nyervention without c9nsent remains challenging.- and here our social systems ger 8nvolved around danger t9 sekf and others (just as they support treatment/therapies t9 get people back onto work.
If you see me as preventing you getting the help you want then you also threaten me with treatment I may with oppose (with good reason, I would, of course ,add). There has to be some 'give' on both sides if we are to achieve an integral provision. All it requires is an admission of some uncertainties and limitations of both . (Calling me a mental illness denier, with all the holocaust connotations around 'denier'doesn't help. Indeed it hinders ).
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Post by Admin on Dec 23, 2021 14:58:55 GMT
If you see me as preventing you getting the help you want then you also threaten me with treatment I may with oppose (with good reason, I would, of course ,add). There has to be some 'give' on both sides if we are to achieve an integral provision. All it requires is an admission of some uncertainties and limitations of both . (Calling me a mental illness denier, with all the holocaust connotations around 'denier'doesn't help. Indeed it hinders ). i'm not responsible for it all. i do see what you are saying.
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Post by flyingcarpet46 on Dec 23, 2021 15:56:35 GMT
No neither of us is responsible for the extent of division
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Post by flyingcarpet46 on Dec 23, 2021 16:31:38 GMT
Certainly my articles have emphasied circumstance and environments because I could see how these had seriously impacted pn my mental health and capabilities for coping with life. And I could recognise cultural significances underpinning my psychosis in addition to the mystical aspects (heightened awarenesses).
And I couldnt handle effects that I discovered were linked to the medication i was being given. The suggestion that I would need them l9ng term to 'stabilise' me was unthinkable. So I set out to learn more. There was little openness about the medications when I was hospitalised, but details were emerging, from the States, and within service user/recipient groups that were forming. I also wanted to know more about the clinical model because as you've said elsewhere there was quite a bit of anti psychiatry about then (eg RD Laing.).I started by probing my brother who was a medical student at the time. And I did go on later to study the 0U course Brain: Biology and Behaviour. I didnt enjoy the course but did well in it.
It's from combining these areas that led me to think in terms of our neurophysiology as a medium between external and internal factors possibly leading to injury - but not totally dismissing genetics (still waiting for reliable proof)and acknowledging physical brain damage.
So, to slot me into a group you need (for starters) to overlap the circle of propsychiatry with that of antipsychiatry and place me in the new set.
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