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Post by Admin on Nov 2, 2018 13:27:41 GMT
What has your experience been like with the World Transformation Movement (WTM)? "I find the same problems with his ideas that I’ve found with every philosophy, theory and faith I’ve investigated: Simplism Denial Overextended claims (well beyond evidential basis) The idea that the human condition is the result of a conflict that arose between instincts and intelligence is interesting and worth thinking about. The idea that this is the primary cause for the unbelievably vile, inhuman behavior of human beings for the last 10,000 - 15,000 years (archaeology continues to discover evidence that prehistoric humans weren’t nearly as vicious) is pretty incredible and in no way based on verifiable evidence. It’s incredible because it would be far more likely that the same evolutionary development that consisted of increasingly complex biosystems that worked in increasingly difficult-to-achieve harmony up to the advent of instinct-driven species would then yield intelligence that worked in concert with and capitalized on instinct instead of came into conflict with it." "All this is beside the fact that there is a far more potent, amply evidenced, verifiable and obvious explanation for destructive, atrocious human behavior, one that goes much deeper than any evolutionary explanation ever could: the near-indelibly damaging effects of traumatic abuse and neglect throughout infant and childhood development (not to mention prenatal development), especially in authoritarian societies. This is the denial I mentioned, and it’s glaring in every philosophy, theory and faith I’ve investigated. No one wants to go back there and face what happened to them, mostly because we’ve already lived through it, escaped it (one way or another), and it’s a terrifying place to be. It’s easier to blame things on conjectured scapegoats that are comfortably abstract than to confront what really happened to us that makes us want to hurt, kill and destroy." www.quora.com/What-has-your-experience-been-like-with-the-World-Transformation-Movement-WTM
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Post by amritdas on Oct 8, 2021 12:01:11 GMT
Very interesting and well-stated observations. I came here after quickly tiring of the advertising pitch for the book "FREEDOM". After the third repetition of the pitch with no content, I decided to see what others are saying about the content of the ideas presented. Maybe scientists are not so good at making appealing ads, but that only causes me curiousity about what they are saying! So I found this post, which is precisely what I was looking for. Incredible! Yes, in my experience "there is a far more potent, amply evidenced, verifiable and obvious explanation for destructive, atrocious human behavior, one that goes much deeper than any evolutionary explanation ever could: the near-indelibly damaging effects of traumatic abuse and neglect throughout infant and childhood development (not to mention prenatal development), especially in authoritarian societies." Spot on. I have been coming to grips with the trauma inflicted on children -- on me, as child -- by the liturgical calendar of Christianity and its ritualisation of human sacrifice, vampirism and cannibalism known ironically and destructively as "Holy Communion". It is horrific, and yet that deeply sick and sickening institution is defended by the very evil it propagates, in the dynamic of denial you mention (or quote for discussion?). Christianity is not the only source of mind controlling trauma. It is just the most deeply engrained and culturally powerful one that I have experienced personally. And if people brought up in that conditioning without understanding it, they are then susceptible to further abusive control by other religious cults, like the Eastern sex gurus who so love to visit the west. Just as one more example. I have not gained a following while speaking the truth about this. Thanks for this post. amritdas1008.wordpress.com/2020/10/05/connecting-collective-religious-trauma-and-narcissism/
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Post by Admin on Oct 8, 2021 12:08:34 GMT
Thank you for the post & welcome to the forum amritdas.
i had to introduce more strict posting guidelines around religion on the forum & since then the place has been very quiet.
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Post by amritdas on Oct 8, 2021 14:05:39 GMT
Do you mean the thread "No proselytizing"?
I notice two strains of thought there. One, not trying to convince others to believe what I believe. Two, not triggering others with religious discussions.
Those are not necessarily the same thing at all. Proselytizing is an action, but beging triggered is a reaction. The mention of prayer requests and offerings of praise to divinity is sensible to me. I am personally perturbed by those things! Triggered, if you will. It's definitely a post-traumatic response.
But being triggered is a diagnostic tool. It tells us where we hurt. Now many people feel their pain entitles them to explosive reactions to being triggered. I feel this is an example of the cycle of abuse! The abused, reminded of their pain, lashes out dramatically. But that is not an entitlement!
If we tell the truth about trauma, people with traumatic experience will have a deep response to that. But that is a good thing, as it offers a healing potential. Talking therapeutically about traumatic religious ritual and dogma is likely to elicit similar reactions as preaching a gospel in the same people.
So it is no surprise if you have sent this message, and now no one knows what to say to avoid triggering others. I just don't think that is a valid or useful goal for a discussion forum for healing. The question is, how to deal with the healing crisis that emerges. Isn't it? That is my general question about it anyway.
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Post by Admin on Oct 8, 2021 14:19:38 GMT
Do you mean the thread "No proselytizing"? I notice two strains of thought there. One, not trying to convince others to believe what I believe. Two, not triggering others with religious discussions. Those are not necessarily the same thing at all. Proselytizing is an action, but beging triggered is a reaction. The mention of prayer requests and offerings of praise to divinity is sensible to me. I am personally perturbed by those things! Triggered, if you will. It's definitely a post-traumatic response. But being triggered is a diagnostic tool. It tells us where we hurt. Now many people feel their pain entitles them to explosive reactions tp being triggered. I feel this is an example of the cycle of abuse! The abused, reminded of their pain, lashes out dramatically. But that is not an entitlement! If we tell the truth about trauma, people with traumatic experience will have a deep response to that. But that is a good thing, as it offers a healing potential. Talking about traumatic religious ritual and dogma is likely to elicit similar reactions as preaching a gospel in the same people. So it is no surprise if you have sent this message, and now no one knows what to say to avoid triggering others. I just don't think that is a valid or useful goal for a discussion forum for healing. The question is, how to deal with the healing crisis that emerges. Isn't it? That is my general question about it anyway. Yes - i was going through some things recently & all my life & for 20 years of using the internet i either have people trying to convert me to their religion or telling me that Atheism / Materialism is correct. For 20 years i sought out & crossed paths with a lot of spiritual healers / groups as well, & have read a lot on all these subjects & areas. i do believe in a God / Source / Great Spirit - Spiritual Realms & Realities & the Soul / Psyche - but i do not follow any specific religion. i think it's very difficult for humanity to come to more of a unity & compromise around World religions / Atheism / Science / Spirituality & in relation to trauma / mental illness etc. i don't know how it's possible to reconcile on a Global level all these conflicts & differences - other than accepting that everyone is a unique individual with their own opinions, beliefs & experience.
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Post by amritdas on Oct 8, 2021 14:43:17 GMT
I now live as a Hindu monk. So I am definitely religious. But my investigation into the source of my own trauma as a young, gay, Christian fundamentalist led me to the work of Mirçea Eliade on th history of religion. Mostly I had to understand what "sacrifice" really means, since it is so central to Christianity.
That review of history and a life of personal experience with world culture and religion taught me a lot about humanity. I have no advice for accomplishing unity -- we are either the same, or we are different. Our tribes may be enemies, or allies. But modern institutional religion is the tool of imperial mind control through carefully constructed dogma which originated with kings and especially emperors. Modern nations are the destroyers globally of indigenous culture, which is simply... humanity without the mind control of modern institutional religions. Religions, which are among other things permeated with rape culture. And yes that definitely includes Hinduism and Buddhism. Indigenous religion, pre-colonialist humanity, had a unity within diversity which finds divinity in our relationships with nature, with our community, and with our selves - not in dogmas about beliefs which are forbidden to act upon, which is a hallmark of trauma.
So I would say the idea that all of these major modern religions, in that they sanction and cause colonialism and its very long list of egregious abuses, do not need to be unified or ignored. They need to be uprooted from our personal experience like noxious invasive weeds. Because that is exactly what they are, in my opinion. The question of tolerating them all alike is, in my opinion, an aspect of rape culture in that it maintains the status quo. No less than the emotional responses at the top of the thread maintain dogmatic belief systems.
Fascinating, really, that this WTM seems to be building a religious sensibility around a discussion of biology. But I don't think the content of dogma is really the issue, much more the psychology of traumatic response.
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Post by Admin on Oct 8, 2021 14:52:14 GMT
Yes i agree.
i have recently simply been trying to focus on a love / acceptance for life, the world / humanity, rather than an argument / resentment or trying to change it all & my own contemplative practice.
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Post by amritdas on Oct 8, 2021 15:44:20 GMT
The most surprising thing in my life as a yogi has been the understanding that specific emotional states are not good goals of practise. Love and acceptance are awesome! But so are argument and resentment. I mean they are all "good" as emotions because they indicate something about our internal state. The goal as I understand it is simply to be aware of each state and observe it without overidentifying with either joy or suffering. They are experiences, not actually identities.
That idea is surprising to many who feel the goal of all religious practise is love, light, happiness, paradise. At least at this point in my understanding, awareness is the only crucial goal. Changes both internal and external, pleasant and painful alike, are inevitable, and notoriously difficult to control and predict. And love is the substrate of everything, but hatred still exists...as love tied in knots, instead of beautifully woven.
But there is this double edge to this thinking. Does simple awareness also end up supporting rape culture? I think it might, depending on how you interpret the word "acceptance".
Maybe a better illustration is about "judging". We learn to 'use good judgment', and we are also taught 'not to judge others lest we too be judged'. So it depends on whether it means, using good pragmatic sense in making decisions about situations, or vindictiveness. But if I am wrong, please judge my behaviour! Because I will do the same.
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Post by Admin on Oct 8, 2021 17:20:18 GMT
The most surprising thing in my life as a yogi has been the understanding that specific emotional states are not good goals of practise. Love and acceptance are awesome! But so are argument and resentment. I mean they are all "good" as emotions because they indicate something about our internal state. The goal as I understand it is simply to be aware of each state and observe it without overidentifying with either joy or suffering. They are experiences, not actually identities. That idea is surprising to many who feel the goal of all religious practise is love, light, happiness, paradise. At least at this point in my understanding, awareness is the only crucial goal. Changes both internal and external, pleasant and painful alike, are inevitable, and notoriously difficult to control and predict. And love is the substrate of everything, but hatred still exists...as love tied in knots, instead of beautifully woven. But there is this double edge to this thinking. Does simple awareness also end up supporting rape culture? I think it might, depending on how you interpret the word "acceptance". Maybe a better illustration is about "judging". We learn to 'use good judgment', and we are also taught 'not to judge others lest we too be judged'. So it depends on whether it means, using good pragmatic sense in making decisions about situations, or vindictiveness. But if I am wrong, please judge my behaviour! Because I will do the same. i like the ideas of non duality - The Three Simultaneously True Levels of Nondual Reality (one Absolutely True, the other two “relatively true”) 3 - Conventional level 2 - Psychic-Soul level 1 - ONLY GOD www.enlightened-spirituality.org/3_levels_of_nondual_Reality.htmlThat everything is real / true / relative. The way i square my own life / mental health condition is that my Being exists at levels of mind, body, soul, spirit & environment - whole person. i don't see the major contradiction in anything - it's just different ways of perceiving & understanding things. i read up on the hard & soft sciences - Atheism & World Religions / Spirituality - i look at everything within society / culture / civilization - all perspectives. i do also feel that there is a right / wrong - that we know what is right, good, kind & compassionate. It's just that on the level of the 'physical' World / Universe & i would expect Astral Levels of Spirt it is Duality, there is no getting away from that.
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Post by Admin on Oct 9, 2021 12:10:09 GMT
I just don't think that is a valid or useful goal for a discussion forum for healing. The question is, how to deal with the healing crisis that emerges. Isn't it? That is my general question about it anyway. i am one person with no extensive training or qualifications in medicine / psychiatry / psychology, who has suffered a 38 year history of severe schizophrenia. So there is really very little that i can offer with this forum / project. Other than to try & create a mental health Wiki / resource & to formulate what i think is a far better approach to mental health in society - But this is simply my own subjective opinion & if other people do not agree with the project vision / aims / goals / guidelines & there is no unity around any of it & if other people cannot follow the forum guidelines - then there is nothing that i can do about it all.
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Post by amritdas on Oct 10, 2021 3:51:34 GMT
I find it fascinating that science is so driven to discover a Unified Field, the theory of everything that can explain both cosmos and quantum in a continuum. So far, they keep getting more and more information and more hypotheses without getting much closer to wrapping that project up! It means that if we did not live inside this universe, we could not invent it or conceive of it at all-- since we cannot even do that from the inside perspective. Sort of parallel in a way to philosophies that presuppose unity of phenomena and being nevertheless cannot live practically in a unified field of nondual awareness any more than the physicists can describe such a thing.
And, that both these atheistic materialist scientists and mathematicians and their religious counterparts elsewhere in culture are driven by an obsession with this same idea... is pretty wonderful in its way. I recall a line from a religious devotional poem that applies to my feeling even about this scientific pursuit: "May this longing be forever unfulfilled"
Are we talking about religion now, or not?! I truly don't know.
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Post by darkrift on Feb 4, 2022 15:32:31 GMT
The nearest that I can say is it seems to repeat, reiterate, and replicate whether its from the inside or out, so here is my offer....the pattern is always the same, but different, sort of like infinite possibilities within limits. That is to say, whats outside is the same as whats inside. Sure, a little different and that difference is the room to repeat, reiterate and render again and again, each in a new way forever, with the projects never wrapping up as you say which can move us from a longing to an opportunity to play. Human spirituality, not religion, is the topic. The duality is the difference that allows time to slip and what is already done and eternal to be rendered now again, but still the same thine, one thing, with infinite possibilities. When you play you need room to imagine and bring about, so you render in your own mind your version of what was already there, but they are the same thing, no real duality...just room to play, sing new songs, tell new stories, find new worlds....or take long naps and dream...
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Post by Admin on Feb 4, 2022 15:36:04 GMT
The nearest that I can say is it seems to repeat, reiterate, and replicate whether its from the inside or out, so here is my offer....the pattern is always the same, but different, sort of like infinite possibilities within limits. That is to say, whats outside is the same as whats inside. Sure, a little different and that difference is the room to repeat, reiterate and render again and again, each in a new way forever, with the projects never wrapping up as you say which can move us from a longing to an opportunity to play. Human spirituality, not religion, is the topic. The duality is the difference that allows time to slip and what is already done and eternal to be rendered now again, but still the same thine, one thing, with infinite possibilities. When you play you need room to imagine and bring about, so you render in your own mind your version of what was already there, but they are the same thing, no real duality...just room to play, sing new songs, tell new stories, find new worlds....or take long naps and dream... Welcome to the forum - this thread has attracted a lot of views - not sure why?
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